http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BereanSpirit/message/39726

From: Steve Heiden
Date: 11/25/01
Subject: Clues for Better Biblical Hermeneutics

Dear Scott, and others,

Is it possible that the Bible might use language in a non-literal manner? Is it possible that the Bible actually uses metaphors and idiomatic language? Let's take a look:

1 Kings 10:23-24 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart. Isaiah 14:24-26 The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand. I will crush the Assyrian in my land; on my mountains I will trample him down. His yoke will be taken from my people, and his burden removed from their shoulders." This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. Jeremiah 50:23 "How broken and shattered is the hammer of the whole earth! How desolate is Babylon among the nations!" Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon was a gold cup in the LORD's hand; she made the whole earth drunk. The nations drank her wine; therefore they have now gone mad. Jeremiah 51:24-25 "Before your eyes I will repay Babylon and all who live in Babylonia for all the wrong they have done in Zion," declares the LORD. "I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who destroy the whole earth," declares the LORD. "I will stretch out my hand against you, roll you off the cliffs, and make you a burned-out mountain." Jeremiah 51:41-42 "How Sheshach will be captured, the boast of the whole earth seized! What a horror Babylon will be among the nations! The sea will rise over Babylon; its roaring waves will cover her." Lamentations 2:15 All who pass your way clap their hands at you; they scoff and shake their heads at the Daughter of Jerusalem: "Is this the city that was called the perfection of beauty, the joy of the whole earth?" Habakkuk 1:6 I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwelling places not their own. Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!" John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect...." Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Colossians 1:6 All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth. 1 Peter 5:9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Notice that such terms as "the whole earth" and "all over the world" do not necessarily really mean the whole earth and all over the world. These phrases are idioms and metaphors. The biblical hermeneutics that the doctrine of young earth creationism is based on is an incorrect hermeneutics, which is based on fallible human wisdom and which has been proved to be wrong. Thus, we need to throw that erroneous hermeneutics out and come up with better ones. Otherwise, we aren't giving God's Word the respect it should be given, but are rather choosing to cling to our own personal beliefs because we like our personal beliefs more than God's Word.

Remember that dangerous implication of the young earth creationism doctrine that I thoroughly discussed a few weeks ago? To say that the Bible teaches that the universe and the earth did not exist more than 6,000 years ago is to say that the Bible teaches error, since this idea happens is false. Does the Bible teach error? No, it does not. Yet young earth creationists go about proclaiming that the Bible clearly teaches error, to the detriment of the Bible.

Instead of clinging to a doctrine (such as geocentrism) that has been clearly proved to be false, we need to step back and consider what is more important: the fact that God is not the author of error. Truth cannot contradict truth, so what we must do is correct our biblical hermeneutics.

Sincerely,
Steve Heiden

--- In BereanSpirit, Scott Tucker wrote:
Subject: Re: Apparent Age -- For David Willis

> --- In BereanSpirit@y..., DBWILLIS@a... wrote:
>
>      1. Regarding Adam's age at death.  Was it
>      deceptive of God to cause us to believe he
>      lived and died at age 930 within recent
>      (10,000 years or so...maybe as much as
>      100,000 if you allow for LOTS of gaps in
>      genealogies) ...
>
> and
>
>      2.  Regarding the flood of Noah.  The Bible
>      account in Genesis and Peter's reference to
>      it confirming the literalness of the account
>      clearly indicates that it was global, covered
>      the mountains, and [e]radicated all land life
>      on earth within recent times ...
>
> Hi David,
>
> I do not see either of the conclusions you have drawn above as
> being valid.  God has not caused us to believe that Adam lived
> recently, nor that the Flood was "global."
>
> First, there is no evidence in the Bible that compels one to use
> genealogies to compute the age of the earth, nor the time that Adam
> lived, nor is it reasonable to do so in the face of contradictory
> evidence introduced in the 350 years since Ussher's marginal notes.
>
> Second, how do the flood stories in Genesis, and Peter's reference
> to them, affirm a global deluge as the only valid conclusion?
>
>     [God] did not spare the ancient world, but
>     preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness,
>     with seven others, when He brought a flood
>     upon the world of the ungodly;... 2 Pet 2:5
>
> The "world of the ungodly" could certainly encompass the Black Sea
> region, perhaps even the Mediterranean.  There appears to be much
> evidence for a "local" flood, and such an explanation satisfies
> both the biblical accounts and modern scientific observation.
>
> There are physical problems with a global flood that are difficult
> to reconcile if the flood event is taken as a natural (not
> discounting "providential") event.
>
> The deliverance of Noah and family would be the least of God's
> miracles -- a greater miracle would be to generate water 4 miles
> high ex nihilo, then dispose of it afterward, without a trace of
> evidence.  [if you want to know more about such problems, I will be
> glad to elaborate]
>
> If Noah's flood was a purely supernatural event, then there is no
> way to assess the story other than from the standpoint of fideism,
> as is the case with the "apparent age" explanation.  By definition,
> it is useless to discuss evidence with a fideist.
>
> I prefer the apologist point of view -- God reveals himself through
> his creation, and through his Word.  If those revelations don't
> agree, then there is a problem with either our understanding of the
> world, or with our understanding of the Word.  I wouldn't
> automatically rule our the latter.
>
> --Grace and Peace,
>   Scott Tucker

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BereanSpirit/message/39748

From: Steve Heiden
Date: 11/25/01
Subject: Re: Clues for Better Biblical Hermeneutics

Dear Ira,

This was my statement. Please let's put that sentence into my original context:

To say that the Bible teaches that the universe and the earth did not exist more than 6,000 years ago is to say that the Bible teaches error, since this idea is false. Does the Bible teach error? No, it does not. Yet young earth creationists go about proclaiming that the Bible clearly teaches error, to the detriment of the Bible.

When a person claims that the Bible teaches young earth creationism, then that person is actually claiming that the Bible teaches error, because the idea that the universe and the earth did not exist more than about 6,000 years ago is factually incorrect. I make this statement about young earth creationists claiming that the Bible teaches an erroneous idea in the further related context of a post I made on Oct. 26, in which I carefully explained how it is that young earth creationists do this very thing. That post is:      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BereanSpirit/message/37224

My primary point in all of this is that since the Word of God is not in error (since God isn't the author of error), and since the young earth creationism doctrine is wrong, then the Bible does not in fact teach young earth creationism. Therefore, any biblical hermeneutics that we use that leads us to a young earth creationist interpretation is a flawed hermeneutics, and we must thus correct any such hermeneutics accordingly.

For anyone who is not already a Christian and who knows anything about science, the fastest and easiest way to prevent them from seriously considering the Bible to be from God is to tell them that it teaches that the earth didn't exist more than 6,000 years ago. They will then just laugh at the Bible and take it no more seriously than you take the Book of Mormon.

A very long time ago, Augustine wrote about this very problem (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim [The Literal Meaning of Genesis], translated by J. H. Taylor, Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41; Book 1 Chapter 19 Paragraph 39):

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion." [1 Timothy 1.7]

Sincerely,
Steve Heiden

--- In BereanSpirit, Ira Mikell wrote:
> Scott Tucker,
>
> Be careful of your statement:  Yet young earth creationists go
> about proclaiming that the Bible clearly teaches error, to the
> detriment of the Bible.
>
> I'm a young earth creationist, but I don't go about proclaiming
> that the bible clearly teaches error.
>
> Just making sure that you aren't making a wide sweep with that
> statement. It covers most, but not all.  I, for example, am one of
> those exceptions to that rule.